Women in Ministry: Stop Focusing on the Forbidden Tree

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Can women teach the Bible? What does complementarianism really mean—and why does this conversation often focus on what women can't do instead of the countless ways God has gifted them to serve?

In this episode of Courier Conversations for Women, Mary Margaret and Hannah Miller explore a joyful, biblical vision of complementarianism. Rather than fixating on the "one tree" God has said no to, they discuss the abundant opportunities women have to disciple, teach, write, mentor, counsel, and faithfully serve the church for God's glory.

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Transcript

Why Complementarianism Comes Up

Mary Margaret 0:05

Welcome back to Courier Conversations for Women. This is Mary Margaret, and today we have back Hannah Miller. Yay! It's been a little while since you've been on here. It has been. Thanks for inviting me back on. I'm so glad you're back. Today we're taking a little break from our discipleship series that we've been doing. We've covered a lot with that. We've done discipleship for young moms, which was with you, Hannah, Discipleship for Singles, Discipleship for Parents with Older Kids, Discipleship for College students, and we're gonna take a short break from that series and talk about complementarianism. Ooh, super hot topic. But we have a little twist on it. Not really, but we want to really encourage women on this podcast. And kind of the heart of this podcast is what women can do. What we know and we're gonna get into all of this, but personally, me and Hannah, we're both complementarianism. Complimentary. Completarianism.

Hannah 1:04

It's a long one. Spell it out.

Mary Margaret 1:06

We both we both um we both believe that women cannot be pastors, that um that is reserved for qualified men as according to scripture. We can get in into that a little bit more. Um we both hold form to that. Um both Baptists confessionally, confessionally Baptist. Um but we think that a lot of the tone around the conversation is very much centered on just that one thing of women can't do this, and not a whole lot of affirming um and just encouraging women with the gifts that they have been given and the ways that they can use those gifts. Right. And so we kind of want this podcast to be just an encouragement to women in ministry of all the ways that the Lord can use you, yeah, and to not focus on the one forbidden tree. Right.

Hannah 2:00

Yeah, that's been a part of what you know, as I've thought about this, and we have a mutual friend from church who it was so funny. Her name's also Hannah. You know like a ton of Hannah's. There's a lot of us from my generation, I'm not gonna lie, I mean them all the time. But uh uh yeah, it is, it's a good name. But uh she literally said the same thing as I did. Yes. Um I'm gonna read I'm gonna read it. Yeah, read what she said because it's better than how I said it.

Mary Margaret 2:21

So last year, and and and I want to be honest too, like, and it was really encouraging for me to hear from you, Hannah, that you wrestled with a lot of the same things that I've wrestled with.

Hannah 2:30

Yeah, and I and I think for listeners' sake, because they weren't privy to the conversation that we had before, um, you know, as you said, I've grown up and believed in compliment complementarianism my whole life. Um, I have always viewed the role of a preacher to be that of that needs to be a man. Uh, understanding eldership, understanding the role of men in the church. So I always believed that, but that doesn't mean that just because we believe something and we know something to be true doesn't automatically just mean that we're it's gonna be okay, that's just easy for us to abide by it. We still wrestle with it. And and it's something I'm a woman who has served in pretty much every area of church ministry possible. And, you know, all kinds of boards, all kinds of committees across the state for the state, you know, lots of different uh kind of leadership positions within the church uh and the church formation, like our organization is Southern Baptist. Um, and I've had multiple people over my lifetime tell me, you should be a pastor, you should be a preacher, because you make a really good one. And I have also ranked I I rate really high on all of the spiritual gift things, and you said the same thing about yourself. You know, it always comes out as you're you would be a good shepherd, and I'm like, yeah, that's really ironic. Um so you know, and and you said the same thing, and it's and so I I don't want to, I you know, I I don't it's not a sin to wrestle with these things and say God's sin to have these gifts either. Yeah, and it's not a sin to have these gifts, and it's just how do I use these gifts with all of the other trees in the garden? And but here I am, my sin nature is my sin nature, longing for, and and we all like to think that we're better than even Adam in the garden. Like, oh well, if I'd have been in the garden and I'd had everything else, I wouldn't have longed for that one tree. Well, here I am longing for that one tree, you know, and longing for that thing that God has said is a good, you know, it's a the preaching and pastor, that's a good thing, but it's not for me.

Mary Margaret 4:26

Yeah.

Hannah 4:26

Um so anyway, and read the actual like the whole quote from Hannah because it's really beautiful the way that she's so yeah.

Mary Margaret 4:31

So for context, um this is this is that from a text message. We we had a text exchange sometime I think last year, um, when I was really wrestling through all these things. Um just wrestling through like biblical womanhood and the just complimentary and stuff, just really wrestling mainly with I feel like the Lord's gifted me in teaching. I love sharing his word. I love like I'm very passionate about the Bible. I love hermeneutics, biblical interpretation, um, discipling people. It just pours out of me. I just enjoy it, I love it. Um, and I just was wrestling a lot with like, okay, he's given me this gift of teaching, this love for his word, but then it almost just felt like, well, why would we talked about this earlier, Hannah, but like, why would he give me these gifts if I then can't express them their full potential, you know, kind of thing. Um which is a faulty viewpoint in and of itself, because using your gifts to your full potential does not have to equal being a pastor. Um that is not automatically just mean that you have to be a preacher. Exactly. Yeah. Um so even that's a false kind of mindset to have. But anyways, I was wrestling with all of that a lot last year and um and I have I told Hannah I have a whole notes app on my or uh a bunch of links on my phone, a whole notes. Um I was very impressive when it when she was scrolling through and I was like, when are we gonna get to the end of this? I have links of like I need a coffee break and articles and things, uh just a lot of thought and research and wrestling over the past year or longer, really. Honestly, I've I've probably wrestled through these things for a lot longer than I think.

Hannah 6:16

In some sea yeah, I think there's seasons of wrestling with like it goes away, and then I have to wrestle with it and it goes back up. And and and I have to take that and I think it's just a part of the Christian life where you you hold your gifts in your hands and and you hold them out to the Lord with a with an with an open hand, and you say, Lord, these are yours. Yeah. And sometimes it means that the areas that we think are our greatest gifts are never used in the way that we think they should be. But it's God calling us to be faithful with wherever he's planted us, with whatever skills we can use there. So anyway, that's a whole different topic.

Mary Margaret 6:48

But so I was I was texting Hannah Koshel, she how shout out to Hannah. Um she's a woman in my church, and um, and she texted me back, and I saved this quote because it's just so good, and it's it's stuck with me ever since. It's it's really good. Um you've got to be careful when you text me stuff or say stuff. I'm not sure. I would like don't don't text this. She's not the first person, though. She is not the first person that I have. I mean, I've written down stuff my pastors have said, um, like like word for word emails.

Hannah 7:21

It seems that you're using it for good. Um yeah, be careful with what you send me because it might be used. It's gonna use it, be used in a podcast someday.

The One Tree We Fixate On

Mary Margaret 7:30

But yeah, so she said, our hearts can so easily yearn for things that the Lord and his sovereign goodness has said no to. There is so much more that he has said yes to that will glorify him through the giftings he has given you. Remember to not fix your eyes on the one tree God has said no to when you are in a good garden with an abundance of other things you are created to enjoy. So I just think that that's like so applicable um for the whole conversation right now.

Hannah 8:01

Because I think it's encouraging women too to know that like it's uh yeah, this is the struggle of all of humankind to want what the one thing in that God has said no to. And I think we all have that one thing in our life.

Mary Margaret 8:17

Yeah, and it might have nothing to do with it.

Hannah 8:18

And it might yeah, it might not have anything to do with this topic per se, but we all have that one thing that the Lord has been like in his sovereign goodness said no to. And and we take our eyes off of all of the other goodness, and we take our eyes off of him. Really, ultimately, that's what it's about. Uh, we've taken our eyes off of him and not and and focused on this one thing, and that's where we just have to s you know, and that's and that's when we start to struggle.

Mary Margaret 8:43

Yeah. Well, and I think too, just off the bat, like addressing this the the struggle, like Genesis 3, it is part of the curse. But like it says Genesis 3 verse 16, towards the end of verse 16, your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you. So I think and we talked about this earlier, Hannah, but like um the order of creation is not a curse. That's right. The man was created first and then the woman. That's a good thing, created by God. But the struggle for wives to submit husbands and the wanting to be the head again. Yes, the struggle against the order of creation is the curse.

Hannah 9:23

That's right. Um I think that brings us, and and I don't know if you want to pivot to this part of the conversation yet, but I think that brings us to an important part of the conversation when we're talking about uh the dynamic of family.

unknown 9:34

Yeah.

Hannah 9:35

And and are you ready to kind of go to that part of the conversation? Or just we don't have a written point. Yeah, well, I we're we're just kind of going here. We had some we knew there were things we wanted to get to, some points, but we didn't have it necessarily sketched out. But yeah, I think the I think I want to make sure I didn't cut off anything. No, no, no.

Mary Margaret 9:51

I think just that that introduction of like the heart of the conversation is we don't want to spend all of our time discussing like the one thing that you can't do. The one thing you can't do, because that's what everyone's talking about. And honestly, we want to talk about the beautiful one. The beauty of the rest of the garden. Well, and I I I mentioned this. I'm I'm gonna mention it because I think it's a good example. Like, I mentioned to you like the idea of like sex. Like, if if every time someone hears about sex, it's in the negative. You can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this. Be careful, be careful, be careful. Right. Then you're gonna start to believe, Christians are gonna start to believe that sex is a bad thing. Sex is not a bad thing, sex is a beautiful gift in the context of marriage. And I think it can be very similar again, it's kind of a weird uh parallel, but I think it's similar analogy to this topic of like women teaching women in ministry is a good thing in the right context. The problem is I think that every time it's talked about like right now, women in ministry or woman teaching, it's always in the negative. It's always you can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this. Be careful, be careful, be careful. Um to where unintentionally, I think women who have gifts of teaching and leadership and ministry are get discouraged because there's no affirming tone of hey, you have this gift, here's how you can use it. Right. You know, and so again, the heart of this conversation is again, me and Hannah very firmly um believe that men and women are different, that they're equal, that are both made in God's image, but that like the teaching and having authority over men, that is for pastors, and that is their role according to scripture. And we joyfully submit

Family Language For Church Leadership

Mary Margaret 11:45

to that. Like we're not we're not bitter about that.

Hannah 11:47

Right. Well, as you as you said earlier, it's the it's the dynamic of of family, uh, you know, the family is a how many times have we heard and and do we read in the scripture the parallel between family and the church and the bride of Christ and members of one body, and talking about the church being a family. And and I don't think any of us would sit here and say uh that believe as you and I as you and I do, that the woman is supposed to be the head of the of the family. No, I it's very clear in scripture that the husband is the head of the family. Well, if the church is a family, as scripture clearly says, then men are the head of the church. Yeah. And of course, I think what makes this especially complicated in our um area of the world, uh specific culturally, is that we've we don't always have a great representation of what a biblical, what biblical leadership in a church looks like. You and I are both a part of a church that has done what I think is uh has biblical leadership, which is having a plurality of elders, and then having deacons who uh serve the church. They're basically kind of hands and feet. They do and and then you have the congregation. And instead of your average church in the area that has deacons who basically are supposed to be elders because of the decisions that they make, but then they're also deacons having to take so they're having to do two things, which is highly unfair to them in my opinion. Um, and then you have a pastor, you have a senior pastor. Uh sometimes you have uh an associate pastor and you have these other things, whereas biblically you have elders who the scriptures clearly say are men, and their role is to have shepherds. Yes, and their role is two things, two parts. It's to have authority and it's to teach the word. Yeah. And so it's and that's very clearly set stated in the scriptures, and that that's their role. And so I think it muddies the waters when we have churches that have, you know, have just a pastor and then they have deacons or they have some sort of form of church leadership that isn't exactly as uh doesn't reflect what I think is the best biblical mindset. Yes, kind of and you have yeah, and you have a little bit less of a like family uh atmosphere. You get a little bit of the CEO pastor kind of vibe, um, and and that kind of thing. And that's I don't mean to say if your church is like that, there's a lot of churches that have that, and it's been that way for decades, and they're wonderful people there, and uh and they do a beautiful job sharing the gospel and getting God's word out there, and and and they're very biblical churches. Um, but I think that when we think about church and we're talking about women teaching and those kinds of things, when we fail to understand that biblically, the best biblical model is one where there's a plurality of elders and there's deacons who, in my opinion, and this is getting into a different topic, deacons can be men or women who serve the church, not in a teaching or authoritative role, uh, and then you have the congregation, it it gets complicated and it makes it more difficult to understand why women cannot be a preacher. Well, because the Bible says women can't be elders, and God says elders are the ones who preach and have authority, and it comes with the two part, the second part of that being authority, and I know we're kind of getting into like the whole this is what you can't do, but I feel like you kind of have to set the groundwork a little bit and then and then be kind of gone. It's tied to authority. That's what this whole five-minute conversation that I've been having here is is about. Yeah, it's being tied to teaching and authority over the body. Why? Because the elders are they're men, they're the head of the church, just like a father is the head of the home.

Mary Margaret 15:38

Well, and I think it that actually makes it beautiful. I remember um I think I had an email exchange with Trevor, one of our pastors, um, and and he explained it as again like that father role, right? And that was just really helpful to me because it's like, okay, like that makes sense. Like, you know, a woman can't be a father, she's a woman. Um a father has to be a father, and so yeah, the elders and the shepherds, like they're they're fathers, they're they're that's like they're I think it's especially easy to understand too when you've had a good father.

Hannah 16:08

Yeah, which just points back to the importance of being a good father.

unknown 16:12

Yeah.

Hannah 16:13

Uh so you know it when because when you're when you are not a good father in the home, it breaks down child's children's understanding of what the family of God is supposed to look like and our heavenly father.

Mary Margaret 16:25

But well, and it's beautiful, it's beautiful again to talk about the beauty of it, like complimentary, it's beautiful. It is beautiful, it's not just this. I think most of the people against though that's what I'm saying. Like, when people hear the word complimentarianism, honestly, when I hear it, because I hear it so much again put in the negative, you kind of just get this like uh like here we go again, like a same thing. Um, and like, oh, like you know, that's that's stuffing on people's toes or whatever, but it's like no no no no, like I think we need to reframe the beauty of it, like it's gorgeous, like like going back to like husband and wives, like that picture is the picture between Christ and his church. And as the wife submits to her husband, it's a picture of the church submitting to Christ. That's gorgeous, you know, like that's that's an amazing picture. And so, like I just think the roles of men and women when you look at like God's design behind that and his intentional purpose for his glory to be made known through those pictures, it's not about you or me. It's not about what we get to do or not to do, it's about the picture that the Lord is painting and his glory, and and we mess that picture up when we try to muddy the waters, you know, of those roles and those distinctions. So let's get to the topic of like let's get let's get to the positive side of this

Teaching Gifts Outside The Pulpit

Mary Margaret 17:52

thing.

Hannah 17:52

Yes, amen. Um because let's talk about some ways that and and and I'll just maybe maybe I can give some examples for my own life because um I I love to teach, you love to teach. And oh well, and you give some examples. What are some ways that you as a woman are teaching without necessarily having authority over men? Yeah, because that again, that's the that's the that's the dividing line there. It's like, hey, you can teach, just you can't have authority over men, and an elder is there's so much freedom, good. There's it's literally anything else. It's literally anything else. Like, do you want to teach? Okay. Well, like do you want to teach a Sunday school class? Do you want to teach a BBS class? Do you want to teach the dude? Do you want to teach you know what? You could just open up your home and teach a class. That's right. There's so many opportunities to teach if that's your gifting, without and and here's the thing too. I I spent a decade um as a personal instructor and a horseback riding instructor. So I just I taught. And I it is impossible to in my opinion, like it's almost impossible to do anything without pointing people to the Lord, without being able to say, I mean, look, look at these. I mean, did you know that horses basically have like an AC system, like a cooling system in their brain, so that when they're going really fast, their brain doesn't melt? Like, how cool is that? God is so cool. And like, how do you talk about these things without so for a decade I taught horseback riding lessons and very frequently shared the gospel and discipled young people and adults to towards a Christian worldview and a biblical ethic because it was so interwoven in my life and in my heart, like it just is what comes out. I can't teach you know somebody how to do sourdough bread without telling them about the gospel. Like here we got a sourdough bread. I know. Just call me a trad white. But no, I mean you you really because that's what saturates my life. And so my point though is you can literally teach anything and teach the gospel alongside of it. Yes. It's not something that it's just like, oh, that's only the thing that we do at church. It should saturate every bit of your life, no matter what your skill sets are. If you're really good at photography and you want to teach photography classes, and you want to have a YouTube where you teach photography on YouTube, then bring the gospel in. Teach a biblical ethic through photography, through the arts. I mean, the the arts are not just like not a part of the gospel message. Uh how how much of art over millennia has been has pointed towards the gospel. And so it's so every every little corner of our lives is a part of God's message. And we can utilize whatever talent we have. It doesn't have to be like, oh, I just I can only teach God's word from the pulpit on Sunday. That's like a tiny, tiny, tiny bit. It's the one tree. Yeah, it's the one tree. But it's also a garden, yeah, there's a big garden. And so think about your own life and think about your and and we live in the 21st century, so you could teach via podcasts, you could teach via YouTube, you could. I mean, there's so many different ways that you can teach and you can incorporate the word of God without it having to be an instance where you have authority over men in your local church.

Mary Margaret 21:17

It's really good.

Hannah 21:18

Uh you know, and and so I just again we just get so caught up with this one thing. And and I, you know, and I'm trying to think about um I mean you teach a w a a girls' discipleship class at our church, you've done a myriad of things uh through our church as well where you've taught. And I don't want women who just feel like we're just okay, you know, okay, you can't have this one good big thing. Um here's all these other little things that you can do. Go do these little things, little girls, and you know, scamper off to do these. I mean, I don't want to be patronizing, you know? Yeah, yeah. Uh and I don't want to be condescending. No, these are these are all beautiful things. And and I know that you're you're not a mom, and I I I am a mom. I have parents that were and I know I'm sorry, I've been talking a lot, but you're good. I have I have parents, um Who have been committed evangelists and disciple makers. I mean, I don't know anybody that I mean my dad, he's going to street preach in New York City in just a few weeks to the Muslims there. He's going to Thailand. He's already been to Mexico a couple of weeks ago. I mean, he goes on mission trips out of the country or around the country m multiple times. Spring a year. You know, he's on the go all the time. He also has what he calls his biscuit busters group, which every Sunday he meets with four to five men and he disciples them on teaching and instructing their families on uh on the gospel and on God's word. And he's done that my entire more than my entire life. Forty foot forty, fifty, I don't know, you know, years. My dad's been a different every year to 18 months, he picks four to five new guys and starts discipling them. But you want to know what the most effective fruit of my parents' ministry has been. You know, the best gift that they've given the local church has been the fact that they had nine kids who all love and serve the bride of Christ, who now all have children who are serving and love the bride of Christ. And and it's just you see that generational, and so while we're all kind of caught up in like the going and the doing, don't forsake the fact that if you're a mom, your primary responsibility is teaching. And it's teaching your children. Who teaches your who teaches a child to brush their teeth or to use the potty or to count to ten? I mean, all of those things. A mom's primary responsibility. And then it's to follow, and most importantly, follow God's word. And that's Deuteronomy tells us to do that. And if you've got the you read the whole thing because you've got it, you've got it pulled up, and I'll let it because I'll butcher it if I try

Deuteronomy 6 And Everyday Training

Hannah 23:55

to if I try to quote it.

Mary Margaret 23:57

So yeah, Deuteronomy six. I'll start at at verse four. Here Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart with and with all your soul and with all your might, and these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. You shall bind them as a sign in your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorpost of your house and on your gates. So essentially it's like whatever you're doing, you're teaching this all day long. Teaching your kids to love the Lord.

Hannah 24:33

And whatever you're doing, whether it's gardening, whether it's taking care of the home, whatever you're doing, teach your children to love the Lord and his precepts. And so I just I and I don't want to patronize women. I don't want them to feel like we're just like, you know, go home and and teach your the Bible to your children. No, do you not understand, like, don't forsake. Don't forsake responsibility to be able to do that.

Mary Margaret 24:54

It is a gift. And I think I think part of it too, well, let me riff off of that for a second. For those who aren't moms, right? This also applies to spiritual children. So Matthew 28, 18 through 20, I'll read that one. Um it says And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I've commanded you, and behold, I am with you always to the end of the age. So for the people who aren't moms, um spiritual children, you're teaching um spiritual kids in the faith, whether that is you are evangelizing, sharing the gospel with unbelievers, or discipling um girls or church.

Hannah 25:54

You know, you have you have a dis Mary Margaret has a discipleship group every other Sunday, and my oldest daughter is a part of it. And it means so much to me to know that I can send my child to Mary Margaret, to somebody else's home who I can trust to reinforce the things that I've taught her. Yeah. And is not going, I'm not sending her into somebody's home who's going to say, Well, I don't really agree with what your parents are teaching. Have you ever thought about this? Or and because I think I do know what I'm telling them. Okay. She comes back. We're recording it. Actually. Uh no, because I I know your heart, and I know you. And uh, and and so, and that's something that you have to think about as a parent. And so I think it's it's so beautiful that here you are, and I am have no qualm whatsoever sending my child into your home. And you're being another voice in her in her life that's pointing her towards the gospel, that's teaching her how to have a worldview, that's based on scripture, and not challenging my her her father and my's authority in her life. Yeah. Um, because the rest of the world wants to do that. Yeah. The entire rest of the world, and and the billions of things on the internet are inundating her. Now she doesn't have a phone and she doesn't have any social medias or anything like that. She's too young for all that. Um, but the average child has those things, you know, just bombarding them. And so don't forsake for if you're a single woman, the importance of being able to pour into and it's not necessarily, and I think the other thing of this is that we all kind of sit away around waiting for the church to tell us what to do. You didn't. You said, Hey, I'm gonna do this discipleship class at my house every other Sunday. Um, you guys want to come? You bring your kids, like your kids are welcome. You know, and and it wasn't like, oh, I gotta wait until I gotta go to the pastors and I gotta make sure that this is something that they say I can do, and this is the curriculum they want me to do. And you know, if which I did check with that. Yeah, to just be like, let them know that hey, I'm doing this thing, and and I want you guys because they're what? They're the authority but taking the initiative. And you're yeah, but you took the initiative and you weren't waiting for them to tell you that hey, Mary Margaret, you should teach a class out of your home. Because that's pretty presumptuous of them, to be honest. Like, I mean, I wouldn't fault them for asking. I'd be like, Yeah, that's great. Like, you should, but they probably feel like it's presumptuous. You know what I mean? I'm not saying that it is, but they feel that that it is, and so there's some people don't want to ask because they feel like it's presumptuous, and so everybody's kind of stuck in this gridlock where you don't want to do it because you feel like it's presumptuous of you to be like, hey, I'm gonna do it, but they're like, Well, they don't want to ask because they feel like it's presumptuous to ask, and so nothing ever gets done. We're totally ineffective. Do you you see what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah.

Mary Margaret 28:33

No, I just I there's yeah, I think you know, last year, again, I uh past couple years, I've struggled with with the whole thing, you know, uh, these are the things I like to do, these are the gifts I have, I love ministry, teaching all these things, what do I do with these gifts, Lord? Um, all this stuff. But then it's like over the past year, two years, whenever it's just like the Lord just dropped stuff in my hand of just like, here you go, like this is look, you're using it, you know, yeah. And it's like, and I just look back and like, man, Lord, thank you so much. And I just I I see each of these opportunities as just like a gift of grace, you know, of just like he's you know, um the Lord's given me these certain gifts, and it's like here's here's these ways you can do it. And a lot of that for me has been a lot of private things, just yeah, um discipling people that the

Priscilla, Private Discipleship, Counseling

Mary Margaret 29:30

Lord puts in my life and my path. Um I think you see that in Priscilla and Aquila.

Hannah 29:35

Uh you see that in uh who's mom's his his lois in was it you just is I'm actually okay, those passages for listeners who are curious.

Mary Margaret 29:44

Yeah. Acts uh Acts 1826, he began to speak boldly in the synagogue talking about Apollos. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. So you have a private dialogue.

Hannah 29:59

Um and it's her and her husband taking somebody aside and having and she's teaching. It says she's there, she's having this dialogue, she's teaching, but she is doing it alongside of her husband. And then I think that's a key, a key point.

Mary Margaret 30:15

And then But it's not to say that she can't. Again, it's it's the context of the teaching that it's not the teaching itself that's wrong, it's the context in which you're doing it in. Um the other verse you slightly mentioned was 2 Timothy uh 1 verse 5. I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and now I'm sure dwells in you as well. So um Paul is writing this to Timothy, and Timothy's father was not a Christian.

Hannah 30:50

He was not even a Jew. And so his discipleship came from his mother and his grandmother. Um in in in a personal private setting.

Mary Margaret 30:59

And then Timothy become and then Timothy, what? He becomes an elephant like he's so it's like you have these moms raising up their son. Like sons.

Hannah 31:09

And Priscilla wasn't in this in to your point earlier, it's not even just constrained to moms, because Priscilla was not a mother to Apollo's. She, you know, she's just somebody who's in the church, she and her husband. And so, and and I'll say this um if you're looking for another way, um, and this hasn't come up in conversation and it's not a typical one, counseling. If you love to teach the word and you love to apply the word, I that was the route that I pursued. Yeah. Uh personally, I went through um ACBC, which is Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, I highly recommend uh that route. They are just so on the money uh with how and their approach to things by and large. I mean, no none of them do it perfectly, but they do a really good job. And I really appreciated uh everything that I learned through them and the resources that they have as well. And so if you're a woman and you really love the word and you really love to teach the word, you know what counseling is? It's a teaching ministry. Yeah, it's just it's just mentoring. It's just, I mean, I tell people all the time, I'm like, I know you're coming in here and you think you gotta go to, you know, therapy is the other dirty word, but you gotta go, you're coming to therapy, or you're going to counseling, and you just feel like you're just such a failure because you need counseling. And I'm like, no, this is just another Christian coming alongside of another Christian, and I'm discipling you and I'm I'm mentoring you, and we all need mentoring at one point or another regarding one topic or another. Yeah. And you know, counseling, and it doesn't have to be this big bad boogeyman. Um, and it also doesn't have to be something that I mean, most all of us probably do some level of counseling all of the time, yes, if you're an outspoken believer, uh, whether you're certified or not.

Mary Margaret 32:45

Well, I would say another another area too is just friendship. Um, like be the friend that knows God's word and can help teach your friend God's word. Like um, it's it's an honor when like a friend will come to me and ask me like a question, like a theological question, you know, and it's like I get to explain and like teach that to her. Yeah. And so like, don't underestimate that of like be that friend that knows God's word that people can come to and ask, what does this mean? Yeah.

Hannah 33:18

Um I also wouldn't um underestimate, and I know this has been a big word in recent years, ever since Rosaria Butterfield's book came out, the gospel comes with a house key, but hospitality. Don't underestimate hospitality when it comes to the gospel message and teaching, and uh, you know, the number of women I've I've literally like shared the gospel with over sourdough, and I know we keep coming back to like the trad wife thing. But no, I mean like you know, sourdough or or canning uh fire roasted tomatoes. I love to can my own fire roasted tomatoes. Like you have horses. So, you know, over horseback riding, like the number of women that I have had out to my farm to be like, hey, do you want to come horseback riding? I well, let's just kind of like when it's not you know, more door outside. I'm I'm messing with you too much. You can mess, I can I can handle it, girlfriend. Yeah, I mean, and I'm I've done counseling from horseback. Like, I literally I have had you know a dad call me weeping. Something's going on with my daughter. I don't know what. Somebody gave me your phone number. Go put her on a horse. And I was like, Well, nobody likes to come into an office and and sit across from a cold desk and be like, and and somebody'd look you in the face, a total stranger, and say, Okay, tell me what's uh what's going on in your life. Like, how are you messing up right now? Nobody wants to hear that. So I'm like, hey, does she like horses? I don't know any female in America that doesn't like horses. And I'm like, does she like horses? And he's like, Yeah, yeah, she's nice.

Mary Margaret 34:47

You're listening to this and you don't like horses. Sorry if we offended you, please forgive us.

Hannah 34:52

But I'm like, she's a 19-year-old girl. Of course she's gonna like horses. And he's like, Yeah, she loves horses. And I was like, All right, bring her to the farm. Tell her, well, here's my address. Let's just go. And we started riding horses together every week. And then we started reading the Bible. Yeah, and then we started talking about things of the Lord. And and she went from being sullen and uh, you know, angry and bitter and depressed to she got a job, she moved out, she's just you know, just flourishing. Yeah, and I think a lot of it just had to do with being a friend. Yeah, she just needed a friend, and that's what I told her dad. I was like, she just needed a friend, and she needed somebody to come alongside of her and and love her and do life with her a little bit and enjoy. And now, of course, I believe there's also power in nature and just being outside. Um but you know, that's a different conversation. That's good. But you know, so like what's your thing? Yeah. What's your what what is your and and I and I it wouldn't be educate yourself on the word. I think the ACBC classes, a lot of those are really helpful, just generally. Like whether you're like, oh, I want to sit down and like you know, be a counselor at my church or not, it just does a really good job of helping you learn to apply scriptures to life and and then just take that and run with it. Like whatever your what's your what's your other tangential talent on? Um, and and be able to go with that. And because here's the other thing. When I was first asked to do broadcast radio, um, like forever ago, I can't even remember. Um well I started in like 15, 16, 17 years ago doing like once a week, and then um took a break for a year because we moved, then I came back, started doing once a week again, and then I started doing every day, and I did that for like three, four years, something. I'll move a little more. Um when I first started that though, and we had we were members of a church, I went to my pastors and I said, Hey, look, I just want you to understand that that I understand that I yes, I'm going onto this radio show and I'm going to be teaching, talking about politics, but it's also a Christian worldview. And so we're going to be talking a lot about the scripture, and we're going to be applying the scripture to what's going on in our culture and in politics. And I want you to know that I am aware that I am an ambassador of this church when I go out. I'm still under your authority as church leadership, and I'm still under the head of my husband, and I'm not going out here, and it's as if they were in the room with me when I would speak on the airwaves. Um, and I'm not gonna say things, and I'm gonna be very thoughtful to make sure that I don't say things that I think you would say was unbiblical and would defy your authority in my life. Yeah. Um but it doesn't necessarily but but saying that doesn't mean that every time we do something has to be within the walls of our church. That's the point that I'm trying to make. Yeah, you're an ambassador of your church wherever you go. Yeah. And you should be an ambassador of your church wherever you go. Yeah. Um whatever whatever you're doing.

Mary Margaret 37:58

Well, and an I mean another thing we haven't mentioned is writing. Like I I think I use I mean, when I'm writing an article, I'm I'm teaching. I mean, uh, you know, and the Lord, I feel like, has has given me a heart since I was a little kid to like to write, and and he's given me this place at the Baptist courier to use that, you know. It's been a beautiful, fun outlet. Um you've won a lot of awards for it.

Hannah 38:26

Congratulations, by the way. Hey, that outlet. But it is anyway. You're poking at me, I'll poke at you. Well, thank you. She's brought a lot of accolades to the courier. So and we're grateful for that. And you know, and it's just but you're flourishing in that role. Yeah. And and you know, we just fight so much about where, you know, oh, we should be in that corner of the garden. I should be in that corner of the garden. I'll flourish better if I'm in that curve. You know, yes, it's like it is.

Mary Margaret 38:57

This is like the ministry, you know, what ministry has the Lord given you?

Hannah 39:00

And it's like if it's would you argue, would you say that Paul probably had the gift of preaching and teaching from the Bible? Paul. Probably. Probably. Probably. Do you think that when Paul was in prison and he said, I am content in whatever circumstances that I am in, um he was able to use his gift of preaching and teaching like he probably thought he should be able to?

Mary Margaret 39:27

I never thought about that before.

Hannah 39:29

You know? I mean, he's probably like, God, you gave me this gift, you got me a message, you radically transformed my life, and here I am, and there's nobody around, you know? Except for maybe a jailer every now and then, you know? So funny. So, like, uh you know, but he learned to be content in whatever his circumstances. And you know what? He wrote. Well, and so he wrote, yeah. And he gave us so much of this very important book.

Mary Margaret 39:56

And I hope too, it doesn't sound like we're not trying to like skedaddle around these passages of like let's let's get as close to the line as we can, do as many things as we can without doing it. That's not a hard at all. No. Um, like at all, at all. So definitely don't like miss you're saying this. We're just trying to point out all the other trees in the garden that are really good fruit.

Hannah 40:19

And and we just get so focused on the one. Like it's just like we get these blinders that we just see the one. And and we do that with a lot of things in life, you know, where all we can focus on is that one, oh, I just want that car, but I could afford a hundred other cars, but I just want that car. And so then that's all we can think about, and we can never take our eyes off of it, and we just forget it. Look at all these other beautiful cars that I can purchase. I just can't afford that one.

Mary Margaret 40:41

And there's so many other scriptures that talk about what we're called to do. Right. You know, like in Titus 2 and how older women are supposed to be teaching younger women and again teaching your children all these things that that we're called to do, but we're so focused on the one thing that we're not supposed to be doing, and we get hyper-fixated on that, and it's just like it's not and then we forsake all of the other things. Yeah. And and that's part of it too, is like the heart of this conversation, which we're gonna have to end very soon.

Hannah 41:10

Yeah, I don't have a watch.

Mary Margaret 41:11

I have no idea.

Hannah 41:12

I'm just vibing over here.

Mary Margaret 41:14

It's 5 05 p.m. when we're recording this. Um but lost my train of thought.

Hannah 41:21

Um forsaking other responsibilities.

Mary Margaret 41:24

Yeah, like like all the energy that we're pouring into a focusing on like, oh I can't do this and da da da and like arguing about it. It's like pour the energy into discipleship and um coming up with creative ways to practice discipleship woman to woman in your church, you know? Yeah. And like again, uh this is something John Piper's brought up, but it's like fifty percent

Trading Status For Faithful Service

Mary Margaret 41:50

of the congregation is women. So, like, there's a lot to do, right? Um, there's a lot, a lot of teaching you can do um within your church to other women and to children, and um and it's very much needed and it's not lesson, and I think a big thing is just like it we have in our own mindset, we've elevated you know, being a pastor to like the ultimate yeah, best thing in the past.

Hannah 42:18

And I think that's what I was trying to communicate at the beginning, but I didn't really do a good job on like why um uh the common form of church um kind of government for lack of a better word, is is problematic is because it gives that illusion. It gives the illusion of the pastor who's the preaching pastor, the senior pastor being kind of this superior pen ultimate it's why everybody starts, you know, they start out as a youth pastor and they all want to be what we all know that the youth pastors are they're just working their way to the top. Yeah. They're climbing this ladder. When it's not supposed to be that way, it's supposed to be elder girls, different members of the children. You know, five, six or more elders, depending on the size of your church, where they all teach and they all teach in different ways and serve the church in different ways, and there's not this, you know, ladder that must be climbed and of authority and prestige and and that kind of thing. And and I you know, and I know that we as women also tend to, you know, where we are looking for that prestige and that acclaim and that that validation and those kinds of things. Um first of all, you should get that from your husband, but second, uh re remind yourself uh that uh uh everything we do is unto the Lord and it is for his glory, and he sees faithfulness, whether the world sees it or not. And the whole of the gospel Christian life is about bringing glory to the Lord, making his name known. And so if you're not satisfied with teaching a VBS class five nights a week once a year, because that's not enough acclaim for you, I have Really bad news about the gospel. Because that is the gospel. It's all about making his name known and not ours. That's that's what it's about. And so I we just have to lay aside this, you know, and when we lay aside this desire for and and that's just and I I've said I do a I do a lesson on um raising digital natives, and I say that the currency of our generation is um it's fame and it's likes, comments, and shares. And that's how we you know and and that's our currency and for for digital natives. And that it's our currency that is carried over into our mentality about the church and serving in the church. And you have to take all of that and lay it aside and take your gifting and hold it in an open hand and just say, Lord, use it how you will, even if it's in a prison cell in Rome or wherever, and you don't think it's getting away.

Mary Margaret 44:58

It's not about the gifting.

Hannah 44:59

That's right.

Mary Margaret 45:00

It's about being faithful, it's about God's glory. Yes. And it's your giftings aren't even about you. Like when when when scripture talks about the gifts he's given us, it's for the building up of the body, it's for others.

Hannah 45:13

And so, like And the flip side of that, not to cut you off, but the really encouraging flip side of that is that if you're faithful, it doesn't matter. Like it's all in his hands. And if you wake up and you're just like, oh, I should have said this, or I didn't teach that, or oh, I haven't been as as good of a pastor, or like I haven't done the you know, if you've been faithful, that's what matters. That's what matters. And it you don't have to feel like you're leaving things out on the court back in my basketball days. Like you're you're not leaving things out on the field. You're not, you know, betraying God by missing something or not doing something, or oh God, I know that you gave me this gifting as being a teacher, and I'm sorry that I wasn't the next Billy Graham or whatever it was, and I just and feel like such a failure, and feel like you've not um given God as much was his due. Because if you're faithful, that's all that matters. Yeah, and so you can rest easy knowing like if if your talent doesn't take you as far as you thought it it should, and it would, and you feel like you're a failure in in the in the church because of that, but you've been faithful, then those things and those comparisons that we get caught up in and all of that goes away. And I think that's the other encouraging thing about this is that we don't have to be super famous, and we don't have to have all this position of leadership or whatever for God to look at you when you see him face to face and to sit for him to say, Well done, good and faithful servant.

Mary Margaret 46:48

Amen.

Hannah 46:49

Should we just end there? I guess so.

Mary Margaret 46:52

I don't know. I don't know what else you wanted to spot. Say a practical

Pray, Take Initiative, Fill Needs

Mary Margaret 46:55

like encouragement too is just like pray if you're wrestling, like, okay, the Lord's given me these different gifts. Um, like I don't know if people take the spiritual gifts test anymore and what people think about that. I actually didn't get it. You were saying you got high on like shepherding or something. I think mine was like exhortation and like exhort that is so funny.

Hannah 47:17

Prophecy. Exhortation and prophecy. Yes. And then some of them call it shepherding, though. I actually think I was low on that one. So I don't have to worry about that. It depends on how they defined it.

Mary Margaret 47:26

But like, but a pair was the one that was my highest dude have always been exhortation and and prophecy, which is like pretty much expounding the scriptures. Right. Yep. Um, but uh I wasn't going there. Anyways, whatever your gifts are, um bring those to the and I'm not saying you should go take a spiritual gifts test. Yeah, no, I'm not saying you know, just go take one of your people and see, hey, where do you think I'm gifted? Or pray for the Lord. Anyways, that's a whole other discussion. I'm sorry, guys. What I was gonna say was bring your gifts to the Lord and pray and literally just pray and be like, Lord, I feel like you've gifted me in these things. Please bring me opportunities and help me to find opportunities to use this gift, or just provide me one opportunity to use this gift. And he will, like he absolutely will. Um, and it might not be in your timing either, and it also might not be what you think it's gonna look like. It could be um you pray that and then he's like your baby starts crying, and you realize, oh, that's where I'm supposed to use my gift right now. Right. Um, which is incredible. And so I would just encourage you, like, pray, bring that to the Lord. Lord, he's he here's the gifts that I have in your timing. Like, please give me an opportunity to use these gifts. And like, he's so faithful um to answer that. And like maybe you're someone that's like, oh man, I've always wanted to like teach a class on this, or like wanted to do this in my class, but like no one's asked me to, and like, you know, I feel like my gifts are going to waste, and no one knows that I know how to teach and stuff. And to that, I would also say, again, pray. Um, and two, like, bring that up to the leadership, bring that up to the people and be like, hey, like, I I really want to be faithful to use this gift, like, how can I do that? And without being forceful, but also be patient with leadership and like patient with people in your church and wait on God's timing because a lot of times, like your timing of when you want to start a Bible study or do something isn't always his timing. Um don't be sitting and twiddling your thumbs while you wait.

Hannah 49:34

Yes. Uh, you know, just if you see a need, fill it. Yeah. Like there's lots of needs in the church, and I've done a lot of things that I'm like, this is not necessarily where I'm gifted. Yeah. But I'll come and I'll serve, and this is not my strength, but you need a body, all right. Yeah. I'm willing to do that. I'm willing to come and you know. You know, I I'm just so anyway, and I know this podcast has gone long, so I won't give an example. But yeah, I have that.

Mary Margaret 50:00

I think we covered it.

Hannah 50:01

Thanks so much for having me on. Yeah, it's always fun. I always have a break.

Mary Margaret 50:04

This will be the last thing

Books And Podcasts For Encouragement

Mary Margaret 50:05

for me all a few books. Oh, yeah. You brought the whole stack. You've got to go through those. Um super, super quick. These have been such an encouragement to me. I haven't finished any of them because me and Hannah were talking about how I start like five or six books at the same time. Um so there's a book, Annie Armstrong's Amazing Adventures. It looks like a kid's book, but it's so good. Um, and it's actually from Courier Publishing, and it's by Rosalie Hall Hunt. Um, so Annie Armstrong, I'll explain while I'm why I'm recommending these books. Um, another one by the same author, Rosalie Hall Hunt. It's called Bells and Tales, and it's about a bunch of amazing mission stories, a lot of them women, um, super encouraging. Um Eight Women of Faith by Michael Haykin, published by Crossway, super, super encouraging. Um, eight different women of the faith in history that have just made an impact. Super encouraging. Um, I'm I just started a book. I really shouldn't recommend it until I read it, but I'm pretty sure it's pretty good. Um and if it's not, then pretend I didn't recommend it. Uh Give Me This Mountain, and it's about Dr. Helen Rooseveare. Roseveare, I think I can never say her name right. Um, and then the last one is it's called In Trouble and in Victory by Sharon James. And that one is like about four different women again in history. And then 9 Marks has a little pamphlet called How Can Women Thrive in the Local Church? That's also a super encouraging read. And that's by Carrie Fulmer. Um that was a lot, but those are all super encouraging in the sense of like just women in history who have gone before us who've made like a really big impact, who have, um, I think for the again, I haven't read all these books entirely, but for the most part, have stuck to biblical complementarianism and have, you know, not gone over the line in those things, but still have made such an impact in church history and um and missions. And it's just super encouraging.

Hannah 52:08

Where would our music be in our churches if we didn't if there wasn't Fanny Crosby? And Lottie Moon other, yeah, Lottie Moon and so many others that uh you know, and again, not to be uh trite or anything, but really and and genuinely women have made a huge impact on the church, on on Christianity worldwide. And you know, stop stop focusing on the one tree. There's a beautiful garden. Yeah, there's a beautiful garden.

Mary Margaret 52:34

Yeah, and also I will recommend another podcast. Um to take away our listeners, but Priscilla Talk. Um, that I'm pretty sure it's 9 Marks that does Priscilla Talk. Carrie Fulmer is one of the the ladies on there. Um really great podcast if you want to be encouraged as a woman in ministry. Um and then Pillar Network also has a once-a-month woman's podcast for Pillar Women. So again, not trying to like, you know, you should also listen to Courier Conversations, but those are also good podcasts that I listen to. Um if you just want to be encouraged, like in ministry as a woman, as a pastor's wife, or as a church planning wife, as a missionary, or just as a regular mom. Well, regular woman. Every woman is a mom, whatever. I'm not a mom. Anyways, we won this. But um, thank you so much, Hannah.

Hannah 53:25

Yeah, absolutely. For coming on. And next time, I don't know what we'll be talking about. But yeah, come back and listen. Have a wonderful day.

Closing And How To Connect

Jeff 53:38

Thank you for listening to this podcast of The Baptist Courier and Courier Publishing. Be sure to follow us on all social media platforms, give us a five-star review, and send any question you want us to consider to courier conversations at gmail.com. If you prefer to watch our conversations, check us out on YouTube or click the link in the description.